What do you think of...hand feeding

[monflat]

Hi, now what do people on this board think of feeding treats from the hand? As a reward for a certain behaviour?

Me personaly i do not like it i think it causes horses to be all over you foraging at your pockets looking for treats everytime you are with them.
What happens the day you do not have a treat ready, nipping then biting.
Also horses do not feed this way from each other only when foals look for milk from their mothers only this way do horses feed from another horse.

Give your honest opinion please dont just skip over thread and lets get a proper chat forum going her just like eckslands said in another thread.!!!!

[El]

I think once in a blue moon (think once a year!) won't usually cause any probs, but if your horse starts to understand that he can *take* food from you, suddenly (like horses in the field) he starts to see you in a different light.

The horse that can take food away from another horse, is the horse higher up in the pecking order. So he'll start to think that he is the boss, rather than you, which can spill over into other things (handling, leading, riding, napping, etc) and also you'll start to get mugged and run over when you go out as he'll just be looking for food in your pockets. So I'm not a big fan! Treats in a bucket works better ;D

Have also hear that too many carrots had excite some horses (like kids and too many fizzy drinks), related to sugars in it, but haven't seen it first hand.

[ecklandshorses]

:)Couldnt agree more, feeding horses from your hand is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Recently worked with a horse that had been injured as a foal and was stabled and "Spoiled" as a youngster with a lot of hand feeding and handling. :'(He arrived here, bolshy, walking all over handlers and constantly in your face so to speak. 8-)Fortunately he is now back on track and well mannered. As El says in her post hand feeding sends the wrong signals and puts your horse in a position of dominance. So Treats in the bucket please. On a similar topic I have noticed a lot of inexperienced handlers getting far to close to their horses, Horses have a whole different view of personal space and approriate gestures to humans, >:(saw some children recently playing tag with their 14-2hh pony in the stable where the kids where running away and the pony was trapping them in a corner, the kids found it hilarious, mum looked on fondly THE PONY WAS IN CONTROL, a disaster waiting to happen. :-/Rushing up to a horse and giving it a big hug might seem friendly to you but it is threatening to your horse.

I'm sure other people have seen similar errors in handling and have views on how to handle a horse correctly and would love to hear what they have to say.

Cheers
DaveK

[lauradomenica]

I am not really for hand feeding. Not only does it cause pushiness but when it does it leads to the weight being on the forehand and that is the opposite of what we are looking for.

However i have big BUT. If there is RESPECT already established in the relationship with the horse and if the horse is by nature lazy, IE the type who is innately the "why should i bother type" These horses are often bright, learn quickly and bore easily. Food can be a really powerful incentive for these horses and used correctly can get them to really put in EFFORT. That combined with rest is what motivates this type.

As a natural horsemanship practitioner the type of horse i mostly get handed are jumpy and unconfident, less often am i handed the other type as they tend to get less upset. My own horse is just this type and she is teaching me a whole lot.

[ecklandshorses]

On another subject. How do people on the board view the subject of long lining or driving young horses in side reins as an educational tool??

I have never been a big advocate of this type of training but I am being told constantly that long reining "Helps put a mouth on a horse" "develops feel" " Makes a horse more forward thinking" I am always open to changing my mind and would like to hear how other people feel about this type of training.

Regards
DaveK

monflat said:

Hi, now what do people on this board think of feeding treats from the hand? As a reward for a certain behaviour?

Me personaly i do not like it i think it causes horses to be all over you foraging at your pockets looking for treats everytime you are with them.
What happens the day you do not have a treat ready, nipping then biting.
Also horses do not feed this way from each other only when foals look for milk from their mothers only this way do horses feed from another horse.

Give your honest opinion please dont just skip over thread and lets get a proper chat forum going her just like eckslands said in another thread.!!!!

[Elaine]

Hhhmm, the reasons which were explained to me for long lining were that it builds up muscle, gives horses confidence being out the front by himself, its riding on the ground so you can practise your stops and turns and gait changes (from what I gather tho most cues you're using here are rein based, rather than seat based which I like to train with), can bring your horse out and about and get him used to obstacles etc............

The argument I heard for sidereins was that lunging a horse with a cavesson can cause the horse to have the incorret bend, as they throw their heads to the outside a little, can encourage counter canter, so people put on sidereains to stop them doing this.

Then there's the idea that you need to build up a lot of muscle in lunging before you ride, (I think ahorse that looks the part will sell for more money too) and also that the only way to get a horse's head in the right place is to use reins of various sorts to pull it down there and keep it there.

I think you can never say never, but I use different ways to get the same basic results, but I'd have a lot more seat cues and I'd look for softness and flexion from the start. Muscle wise being out 24/7 does wonders for a horse, andthe classical schools (I think) say that the idea isnt to build up a big muscley young horse and then start riding, but to allow his muscles to develop correctly as the work progresses slowly. It takes at least 5 years to prepare a youngster for the andalucian school.

+++++++++++++

What I do like tho ;D is to be able to do a few circles (max 3 or 4, you're talking maybe 10 or 20 seconds) on a loose rein, or in a small round arena with the horse completely loose.

Its nice to see if a horse can travel correctly with softness and flexion around a circle without you riding. Because if he can't do this with you on the ground, he's unlikely to be able to do this when you're in the saddle.

Its good when saddling, you put on your saddle, then ask your horse to walk and trot a circle or two around you (check horse is comfortable with saddle, if he starts to buck cos of saddle you're safe on the ground) and then bring him back in. Check your girth again, then get up.

[monflat]

I would agree with Elaine in the above that Long Reining get s the horse out and about up in front of the person on the ground and gets him thinking forward movement. But there are some horses out there who dislike long reining and i own one of them.
She does not like someone behind her and will turn face you all the time with the long reins on and will do a variety of other manouvers and will not lead from the shoulder by another person when the long reins are on
Its not the end of the world as i just tries it on her and there are various other methods to keep working away on her.

I suppose if you want your horse to pull a cart or plough you would start off working them in long reins to get the feeling of being worked from behind energy of the handler projected forward to the horse.


With regards to side reins and lunging i yet have to see some where where they teach it properly.
But the circle for lunging a horse 20m is too small in my opinion. When working the horse traditionally i supppse it is merely for exercise forward movement working into a contact, when working the horse with naturlal horsemanship techniques the person is looking for a lot more.

Side reins are used to get the horse to accept a "contact" on the reins but have you seen where the side reins are attached- i have never seen a rider carrying his hands down around the girth area so for starters the location of the side reins are not similar to the position the rider carries their hands.
"CONTACT" now there is another can of worms- contact can be anything from light pressure to actual force
Forcing a horses head into "position"
What is the position a horses head should be in i ask!!??

Any WORKING YOUR HORSE IN AN OUTLINE can anyone explain what is meant by this.
As every horse is in an outline in the field in the stable when ridden if they were not they would be a ball of jelly dosnt the skeleton form a frame to support the horse?

An outline would come from behind if the horse is using his hindquaters if he is propelling his energy forwards if he is supple , if he disengages his hindquaters i think this would be more like the horse you see in the wild - than the "Forced"outline we see nowadays with gadgets reins for this that and the other.............

What is the definiton of an OUTLINE ... ..
Are riders (in schools all over ireland) taught what an outline is or do they just presume that when the horse drops his head a bit looks good he is in an ouline?
forgetting the fact that his front half is carrying all the weight he is leaning so hard on the riders hands causing pain in forarms shoulders etc.

Im just throwing out some stuff here feedback appreciated!!!! ;D

We need to start questioning why are things done that way and not ot accept the answer that that s the way they always were done looking outside the box i guess!!!!

[Elaine]

Yep, agree Sometimes people think an outline is literally what your horse looks like. So head pulled in = good.

Its a bit like knowing what you want to do, but not knowing why you're doing it. If you knew you wanted to achieve a soft relaxed, supple, flexed, athletic horse who's lovely to ride with nice scopey movement, you wouldn't do something like pull on its head constantly and brace the whole front end, with the two front legs doing a short fast paddle impression, (you couldn't move your arms much either if your shoudlers were stuck) rather than doing any kind of nice movement.

I guess its the diea of actually finding the specific area where the problem is, softening and loosening up that area, and then proceeding, instead of just trying to fix something else that is never going to really deal with the issue.

Its like if someone has a sore head, and advising them to get a brain scan & multiple other tests etc done for tumors, instead of realising they had been out on the beer the night before and it was just a hangover.

Symptons might be similiar, but the reasons and thus the solutions are completely different.

You got to figure out whats actually happening, before you can start to work on the right thing. Make any sense?

[Elaine]

The thing about sidereins and contact, is that for me reins are a subtle comunication device. When your horse *for a split second* gives his head slightly, you have to be ready to realise all pressure as an immediate reward, in order to comunicate to your horse that he's just done what you want him to. Thats hard to do when sidereins are tied on permantly during schooling.

Its all about timing & feel & rewarding the try. Recogising that horses have brains, can learn things very quickly, and making use of these attributes in training.

But then again, during all my lessons growing up no one really explained what it was all about, but just focusing on getting the head in, so as it wasn't what I wanted to do, I stopped progressing in that direction. I knew it didn't match with my belief that you should have soft hands, and be able to ride with two pieces of thread, and that your horse was entitled to a soft mouth too.

But I didn't actually know there was a nice way to do it That only came a few years later

[monflat]

Yes i agree totally we are not perfect and i have gone down that traditional route also but where else is there to learn how to ride and the horses &ponies at riding schools have a job which they were chosen to do but then again they could be in worst places like the slums of india carrying heavy loads and scavaging for food on rubbish dumps

Horses in schools have become de sensitised to lots of things but then again would you blame them. Its their way of coping
But its the people teaching not knowing the answers other than it s always been done that way other than questioning why ? is there a better way .

My horses are my greatest teachers i would not have discovered the Horsemanship way of going if it were not through a particular horse i own.
Things happen in our lives for a reason & each person will b given the oppertunity to loook outside the box numerous times in their lifetimes it s only up to them to grab that oppertunity and run with it. ;D

[lauradomenica]

Lots of good stuff said by Elaine and Monflat.

I am very much in agreement with them on side reins. I do not like the restriction of something static, even the elastic ones. i also agree that so many people don't really understand the trude meaning of the orse being through or coming on the bit. I was certainly not brought up in true understanding of the facts.

On the circle without side reins and and on a loose line, I work towards having the horse feeling back to me, if he's feeling back he will be accepting and relaxed, then correct flexion just comes.
The maintnance of my position relative to the horse is crucial and equally, the correct driving energy, with the correct intent. If any of these three ingredients are missing there cannot be acceptance on the part of the horse. No that's not really true, once the horse is solid in your leadership you can disobey the first two rules but I think the last is always important and the hardest one for us humans to get right. Does this make any sense?

On long-lining. I like it very much. Because of back problems i have had to spend more time on the ground with horses that i really would have liked. The upside to this is that i have tried a lot of things i wouldn't otherwise have.

I use long-lining as part of a progression,really for one reason.. to have the partnership grow stronger, the further behind i am the more responsibility i give to the horse both for going forward and for feeling back to me.
I start by driving the horse from behind the shoulder area, on a loose line, then slowly progressing to the hind quarters, then eventually behind. i will do this on one line on both sides before i go to two lines and i like to be able to do turns away and towards on one line before two lines are used. When all this is established on line the transiton to two lines is so simple you would not believe.

I do not use the line to ask the horse forward, to stop, change gait, or turn but the energy within my body and my focus.

This has to be solidly established when i am close up for it to work when i get further and further back.

This all takes quite some time but it is in my opinion really valuable work.

I got inspired to work with this stuff after i had seen Bettina Drummond doing a longlining demo in the US. Man she was awesome. Now there's a lady I'd love to go learn from.

ecklandshorses said:

On another subject. How do people on the board view the subject of long lining or driving young horses in side reins as an educational tool??

I have never been a big advocate of this type of training but I am being told constantly that long reining "Helps put a mouth on a horse" "develops feel" " Makes a horse more forward thinking" I am always open to changing my mind and would like to hear how other people feel about this type of training.

Regards
DaveK

monflat said:

Hi, now what do people on this board think of feeding treats from the hand? As a reward for a certain behaviour?

Me personaly i do not like it i think it causes horses to be all over you foraging at your pockets looking for treats everytime you are with them.
What happens the day you do not have a treat ready, nipping then biting.
Also horses do not feed this way from each other only when foals look for milk from their mothers only this way do horses feed from another horse.

Give your honest opinion please dont just skip over thread and lets get a proper chat forum going her just like eckslands said in another thread.!!!!

[ecklandshorses]

Hi Guys & Gals

Well done to Monflat for starting this thread it seems to be causing some degree of debate which is wonderful and helpful to us all. So interesting to hear other peoples perspective on things.

On Long Lining and the use of side reins it appears that side reins are by general concensus of no benefit at best and cruel at worst and I would agree with this. I have never used them and think they are of little benefit.

Long Lineing it would appear is not generally viewed as a negative but I still dont see how the practice has any benifits.

Let me explain: We dont long line..... and as far as possible we try to educate a horse from its back as we feel that in the saddle you can use all of your aids and assist the horse in its education to the greatest degree from the saddle.

So to teach a horse to obey your leg we simply ask for flexion (Flexion is learned in the round pen and on the lunge) and apply leg and the horse turns. WHY? well I think this is answered simply by trying out the folllowing experement.

Have a friend stand in front of you with arms extended up and then gently touch their sides. They will automatically move away from the pressure at the point you have touched and bend inward. (And remember horses are way more sensitive than humans.)

Right.. so with flexion and bend we have direction without the use of long lines.

As regards using long lines while taking the horse out and about I would argue that you are in a lot more control of a horse when in the saddle. Imagine this situation, Young horse being longlined, horse spooks and bolts.. your only recourse is to either let the horse off which will at best send the wrong signal and at worst lead to injury or you can pull the mouth of the horse which does no good what ever.

If you have a similar situation while in the saddle you can control the spook and deal with it.

Have more to say on this but duty calls so back later

Cheers
DaveK

[ecklandshorses]

Right Finally Back. Been Clipping horses, my pet hate but must be done with the showjumpers.

I was talking about long reining and it benifits if any but Monflat brought up another interesting topic, that of a horse working on the bit and working in an outline and I have to say this is a subject we all have various ideas about.

We start young horses and as I have said do not use long lines or side reins and to a large degree dont worry to much initally about young horses outline. I think to acheive lightness (Outline) you should first concentrate on having your young horse working forward and work with a very allowing contact. We ride most of our youngsters like this in the initial phase of training. One the youngster has started to come under themselves and is happy in walk trot and canter we then look for them to work into the contact, to a large degree you are asking the youngster to work into your hands by taking the bit forward as against tightening up and pulling the horses head back. So using our leg aids and gentle flexion we ask the horse forward onto the contact. If the young horse is well under itself it will generally take the bit forward and you must always allow with the rein so that as the horse gives to the contact you release and allow. In the ideal world we are looking for self carraige and lightness but this takes time to acheive and you can not ask for to much at a time with younger greener horses.

Using side reins to teach a horse in my opinion prevents self carriage and causes braces and stiffness which can stay with a horse for life.

Cheers
DaveK