Where did this hideous idea come from??

[monflat]

Was loading a horse with a friend at the weekend and of course you have the onlookers who can always do better than you can and will give you the best of advice from the sideline

At the time the horse was taking its time loading and we had such a suggestion from a spectator.
Why dont you cover his head and he will walk straight in i do it with my horses and they go in first time.....................................................................


Now pleasse can anyone shed light on this where did this phenonomen come from its not the first time it was suggested to me....

Why why why how in gods earth i ask.

[lauradomenica]

I imagine it comes from the idea that what the horse does not see it will be less afraid of, a bit like blinkers in driven horses.

I have seen this technique many times and it indeed does help but if we are looking for co-operation and confidence in our horses and want to have them be our willing partners it has no place at all.

Just you stick to your guns girl. People using natural methods are pioneers at the moment, but things will change slowly given time.

[ecklandshorses]

It gets worse. I have seem chains behind a horses legs being used to pull it into a horse box.
Ropes being forced around a horses nose to pull it down and on one recent occasion a gent was collecting a horse from our yard which we had been asked to start and work with, the horse in question a young filly had been trained to load in a box but approached this gents box with some reservations as it was not the box she was used to, she sniffed the ramp and was about to load when he decided to crack her across the rear with a crop. In two seconds he could have destroyed the work it took us six weeks to do. The mare pulled back, freed herself and headed back to her stable. I managed to load her myself with no problems shortly after but to be honest felt seriously disheartened seeing the filly leave the yard and wondered if because of her owners ignorance our time with her had been wasted

monflat said:

Was loading a horse with a friend at the weekend and of course you have the onlookers who can always do better than you can and will give you the best of advice from the sideline

At the time the horse was taking its time loading and we had such a suggestion from a spectator.
Why dont you cover his head and he will walk straight in i do it with my horses and they go in first time.....................................................................


Now pleasse can anyone shed light on this where did this phenonomen come from its not the first time it was suggested to me....

Why why why how in gods earth i ask.

[monflat]

God that must have been heartbreaking for you,
You had shown that filly a way that humans are not at all that bad that you understand her- then all of your hard patient understanding work was undone in oh such a short blink of an eye all that was undone .

I know you have to get on with it and you cant do good by all horses you work with (in that i mean all are not a fairtale ending you do your best but when they leave your place you can not predict what may come .)
But unfortunatly is always seems that the horse is the one that suffers in a suitation like the one you described above, and it is only then we realise what great animals they are - that horse loaded and off she went she trusted humans after what happened to her.
As you know horses live in the here and now .
I always let the horse sniff if they want to sniff at the ramp but then its down to business and once they are more relaxed i start with the loading .
people are so impatient now adays and by doing this they are little by little loosing the inqusitive parts of their horses .
People are so busy with life that horses are so "managed" that aint allowed to be horses.
People have this idea that they should do this they should do that ...

[ecklandshorses]

The subject of loading takes up a lot of webspace and everyone seems to have an idea about it. I have seen two wonderful methods in action. The first was a guy using Positive and Negative re-enforcement where he would reward the horse for stepping forward with a pat & rub and scolded the horse for a backwards step with a sharp voice and a light tap of the lead rope on the shoulder. The whole thing took about 20mins and the horse then loaded (first time loader) and whats more loaded immediately into box, trailer, truck first time every time after that.

But the very best method in my opinion is conditioning foals not to fear the box from an early age. An old guy who used to work with us would park his horse box in the middle of the field and use it as a place to creep feed weanlings, he would start by feeding them on the ramp and then eventually feed them inside.

Then when he started to load for the first time he had no real problems. He would always load youngsters and drive them slowly around the block before unloading them back at the yard. The youngsters always seemed happy and content in the box and all of his work seemed well worth while when you see animals at shows rearing and bucking to avoid being loaded while his horse would walk happily onto the box and stand while being tied in.

I know its impossible for everyone to do this as many of us get horses at the riding stage but it still makes sense to take time and condition your horse, allow them time to become accustomed to the box, load and unload with out travelling, when you do travel drive slowly and make the initial journeys short, avoid braking suddenly or taking turns at speed. Horses are by in large good travellers if given time to become accustomed to the box.

Cheers
DaveK

[monflat]

I have never seen the first example of positive and negative reinforcement but then again it worked in your example.

Well all animals are born a clean slate arnt they it s only what they experience at the hands of humans what makes them fearful, unsure and afraid.

I suppose in the year 2007 people out there have plenty of money and if this horse does not work out they go by another where as if the person really had no money needed the horse to work the land and as a mode of transport they would be at more of an understanding.
Past experiences no matter how little have an effect on horses- a horse with a fear of confined spaces can lead the handler to problems when it comes to loading. Poor weaning also has a life long effect on horses.

There are horse sales going on each all over the country where the foal is brought with its Dam to the sales sold as a seperate lot and seperated from its dam there and then and loaded into trailer lorry etc- and they cant load the foal because it is distressed etc and then we wonder why so many horses have seperation anxiety .
I praise anyone who spends the time to wean their animals with patience and understanding by leaving them in company of other horses and not seperating them totally from 4 legged company

I think though its just ignorance in the lack of NOT knowing that Irish people do this and now in a competetive market young horses are churned out by the dozen and prepared for their lives ahead if them in a matter of hours.
I suppose its like life in the fast lane but yes i admire any person who takes the time to make sure that steps like
Leading Loading Feet Handling, Tying up are established in their youngsters before selling them on.
Its like the "ould man" in Mark Rashids Books - somewhere out there in every corner of Ireland there are some of these people working quietly away producing Great horses and no one is taking notice of them as yet but soon people will wish they got to know him sooner!!

The Irish are different with their horses by this i mean they wont be told what to do a bit of a closed shop its only when they are good and ready that they will be open to other methods .
Its only a small minority of us that have found that other option at the moment .
I suppose all the big names of "Horsemanship" would be delighted to come to Ireland but this will only happen in baby steps.

Ireland the land of a thousand welcomes (but not where horses are concerned) i mean this in a good way
I suppose the Irish are just Proud of their ability to Produce good horses and will not be shown another way of dealing with them at the moment! ;D

Things are changing thou....

[ecklandshorses]

Interesting that you should say that Monflat. I have only really started to go public (Come out of the closet) recently regarding how we start our horses here. I have to say the response I have recieved from the tradionalists has been less than great. I have been told I am ruining horses, that they will not cope with pressure in the future, that the horses we start must be exceptionally quiet (Have done about 20 this year so what are the odds) that I have no idea what Im doing, all of these comments from the guys who do it the same way as their grandda did it. This is somewhat disheartening and can make you doubt yourself BUT

However we have had our first horses out competing, have a tack room full of rossettes,have customers who swear by us, and have not had one ounce of negative feedback from an owner about a horse we started. So slowly getting the message out there.

I sometimes feel like a member of a covert underground sect but I see my horses improving every day. We purchased an unbroken 4YO last friday, started him on Sunday, rode him Monday and by Friday he had hacked out XC and the roads in company, we rode him for a lady today who knows her horses and she was impressed by him but when she asked me when he was "Broken" and I told her she came very close to calling me a liar. Starnge old world the Irish Equestrian one but I think people will come around slowly, I have to say that we have had no difficulty ever in selling a horse we started ourselves and the more that are done this way and the more people that come to own them the wider the message will spread.

SO VIVA LA REVOLUTION

Cheers
DaveK

[monflat]

Yes i think if you spend the time working thru issues not brushing them over like in some Traditional methods calmer more grounded horses are produced.

I think if it takes 3 weeks to work on some ground skillls to work through some issues like leading loading etc so be it you will be doing it through building a relationship with your horse not by force or "he has to do it he has to learn"

Oh its exciting stuff aint it imagine what it will be like in 10 yrs time

[salina]

It's awful how ignorant people can be, at a stables I used to ride at one of the methods of loading a pony that was nervous of going into the box was throwing stones at her legs! that really helped to calm her down.....