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Post by amanda1066 on Aug 27, 2009 9:41:13 GMT
Great news moongirl! Yes Dermot is a lovely man and passionate about horses welfare and feet as well as being willing to share all his knowledge. Good luck with your 2 for the future. Mta... re boots I know nothing but here's a link to a post on another DG (if that's allowed?) by someone with lots of boot experience. ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ght09&thread=98004&page=2Scroll down to the third post by Taklishim. Let me know if this is not in order admin please. |
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Post by moongirl on Aug 27, 2009 9:57:53 GMT
Easyboots are widely available from the UK and most places do mail order - just google it. They are also available on EBay.co.uk. You are supposed to get the 'fit kit' first to get a really good fit but that is refundable.
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Post by moongirl on Aug 27, 2009 10:21:26 GMT
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Post by liamclancy on Sept 10, 2009 15:23:55 GMT
Well,the barefoot experiment is over for me.I took the shoes off Ed on 8th May,and although some days have been better than others he hasn't had a pain-free day since.I have tried to keep up with the training and occasionally tried to ride him,most recently on Sunday. I took him on the tarmac road and at best you would have described him as being a severely laminitic horse.The shape of his feet has definitely improved and I'm almost sure that given time the hardness and durability would have come as well.The question is how much time?!
I have had quotes of 12 months,maybe more,maybe never,maybe boots will be needed.I really wanted Ed to go barefoot and have tried to gain as much knowledge and information as I could.The thing that is consistently put up (quite rightly)as being the ideal is the wild mustang.It made me wonder if natural selection hasn't helped to eliminate horses with genetically imperfect feet(and vice versa)in the wild.I suspect horse breeders pay little attention to the soundness of horses' feet when choosing whether to breed or not and it could be that some, or maybe a lot of our horses are simply not designed to succeed barefoot.
I own a horse so that we can do things together,for the last 4 months we have done virtually nothing and this could go on indefinitely.Add to that the suffering I've seen him endure,cheeks sucked in,heave lines and wincing with every step as led me reluctantly to re-shoe him.
The day after he was re-shod he was in the arena almost back to his old self,moving well and happy in his work.Not a perfect solution I know but then he'll always be an imperfect horse but at least he'll be a happy one!This convinced me that I'd done the right thing.
For any of you who are thinking of going down the same road this is just a cautionary tale about one man and one horse.It can be hard,painful and ultimately unsuccessful.I've found there is a cost to going barefoot and for me and Ed the price was too high.
On a lighter note there was somehting more uplifting about the whole experience and that was Ed's attitude.When going through transition to barefoot it is necessary to have the horse go on hard smooth roads or even slightly gritty ones.It's important to keep the horse moving to encourage blood circulation and to allow the internal structures to re-align.
Throughout the last 4 months of pain Ed did not complain once.Not one refusal not one angry look never ever unhappy to see me,always ready to try his best,and why?Just because I,me,the one he trusts asked him to. What a horse!!!
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mandy
Young horse
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Post by mandy on Sept 10, 2009 18:03:24 GMT
I am glad you told your story... I too took Hamish's shoes off in May. Now we have only worked in a sand arena, and done very little of that either. He was a bit 'feely' after the first trim on the pebbly part of the yard. Less so after second trim. The shape of his feet changed dramatically after the first trim....So two trims later his feet look good. My next step is to do some road work to see how the transition is going. I have an open mind, if it is not for him and he needs shoes so be it. Barefoot is not for every horse. You are a good owner to listen to your good horse  |
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Post by liamclancy on Sept 10, 2009 18:49:15 GMT
Thanks Mandy and good luck
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Post by intouch on Sept 10, 2009 21:04:26 GMT
Good for you, liamclancy, for giving it a try, and sorry it didn't work for you, but you know your own horse best and did the best thing for him. The one thing you don't mention in your story is nutrition - I wonder if you were advised on the best feeding for him? I spent 2 years transitioning my first horse, an OTTB with dreadful flippers for feet, he did come sound in the end but I well rmember walking him down the road in hiking socks just to get him to the field! Nutrition was the answer for him, when we got the diet right, he improved in leaps and bounds.
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 10, 2009 21:27:31 GMT
Oh Liamclancy I'm glad you've had your horse shod again if he was in so much discomfort. I think you have to be prepared that a horse may never be rock crunchinly sound even after considerable time but some can be even in wet climates. www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/Diet, movement and trim in that order are what I believe to be the most important aspects to try to get right. Movement of course means correct movement not pottery and hesitant or sore, this is where boots and pads come in for many horses as well as work on sand surfaces etc to begin with and work from there. Some horses are fine as soon as their shoes are removed it seems to be totally individual and dependent on the development of internal structures, whether thrush or other problems are involved and diet. I personally don't believe horses hooves are bred out of them but I do believe they are managed out of them, shoeing early, high sugar diets, insufficient movement from birth etc., etc. Ooops sorry... didn't mean to lecture! It doesn't take much to get me going on about horses feet!  Liamclancy horses are amazing aren't they. |
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Post by mariab on Sept 10, 2009 22:19:57 GMT
Sorry to hear it did not work Liam, Sean did ask me to go visit you but never got round to it, but you need to do what your heart and your horse tells you
Agree totally with Amanda, on diet, movement and trim order.
Also some horses need hoof wall to walk on to stay sound and the wild mustang trim is just to severe for them, it really isn't just about the trim you can't just take the instructions from a book and then expect it too work, this is why I decided to train, but then that is one trimming technique and there are loads of different approaches, getting the diet, environment and disease out of the foot is so important, and boots I think for the majority over here is nearly a must for transitioning, unless they are heavy coated horses like cobs
Anyway happy riding Liam
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 11, 2009 9:19:06 GMT
Also some horses need hoof wall to walk on to stay sound and the wild mustang trim is just to severe for them, Just to pint out that the 'wild horse' trim I've studied mostly ala Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey latterly does leave the wall proud of the sole. The wall is only 'relieved' to some extent in horses with problem such as flare (which is most! raises eyes.) but Pete Ramey does advise owner trimmers to just do a basic trim respecting the sole and leaving a bead of wall proud and the foot will heal itself anyway and remain as protected as possible. I tried to study KC La Pierre and tbh it is very similar but I had a bit of trouble understanding some aspects of his theory so to really understand properly you do need to train as mariab is doing. I will again recommend Pete Rameys DVD series Under the Horse for an excellent resource for understanding the development of the foot and how pathologies arise mainly out of the way we keep horses. It is pricey but is worth every cent imo. |
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Post by liamclancy on Sept 11, 2009 9:51:17 GMT
Thanks for the comments. Although we did try different lotions, potions and trims I never looked at nutrition or hiking socks. Sean actually rode him on Sunday also(just to make sure the horse was'nt taking the p out of us I think) he agreed the horse was in pain and suggested Maria take a look.
I'm sure there other approaches to try, all unfortunately without guarantee, but after four months I think age also came in to it,Ed's ten I'm a couple of years older. Lots to do, not much time to do it in.
I have however been toying with the idea of getting a young, maybe two year old, quarter horse to bring on and would definitely try the barefoot option again.
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mandy
Young horse
Posts: 62
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Post by mandy on Sept 11, 2009 12:10:57 GMT
I would be really interested to hear what nutrition is best for hoof care. My horse is not fed hard feed or supplements.... I understand biotin is a good supplement for hooves, but my horse has good feet so does not warrant a supplement. My thinking would be feed should be low to no sugar with correct protein content for the work level of your horse. Are there other factors to consider nutritionally??
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 11, 2009 15:42:49 GMT
I understand that a high forage (hay/haylage mixed species not rye or processed which can be rich and sprayed with mould inhibitors ) low sugar,low starch diet with correct balance of vitamins and minerals is the best diet for a horse in general not just the feet. Also keeping chemicals to a minimum can be helpful for many. This is fairly easy to do if your land and the land your forage comes from has correct balances... in England it is common for magnesium to be deficient in soil so often magnesium supplements can help. I think if you haven't problem then don't worry. I know Pete Ramey has found over and over again where he can't get horses feet to be really 'rock crunching' he has the forage/soil analyzed and there frequently is a mineral deficiency... one example he gives is a test result of no zinc at all in the soil and when a high zinc supplement was given the improvements in the feet was tremendous. Mta... I've recently put all mine back onto a 'good' balancer as I have noticed that after a year without (just a mineral lick) their hoof horn quality has deteriorated. It's often difficult to know for sure what is in some feeds without asking for an analysis from the Company. The choice of feed and balancer seems a bit limited over here but I can get Top spec comphrehensive balancer and speedibeet (unmollassed beet) for the skinny boy which I'm using at the moment. Oh here's a link to the Diet, movement and trim being important you can click on each for a brief overview of what this means. www.barefoothorses.co.uk/pws.html |
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Post by intouch on Sept 11, 2009 20:32:23 GMT
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 11, 2009 21:37:13 GMT
It is great intouch but I think only members can access it so peeps may need to join that Forum to access that info.
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Post by intouch on Sept 12, 2009 19:17:07 GMT
Go for it, email justine@epauk.org for permission to join, it's free, say I sent you! You'll get expert advice from top UK trimmers.
Lesley Harvey
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 12, 2009 20:17:05 GMT
Go for it, email justine@epauk.org for permission to join, it's free, say I sent you! You'll get expert advice from top UK trimmers. Lesley Harvey Thanks, I'm already a member. I'm also a member of UKNHCP forum but don't post too much on either really but do lots of reading.  |
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Post by intouch on Sept 13, 2009 22:34:27 GMT
Yes Amanda, I know you're a member, I was thinking that Mandy and Liam might like to join,
as they seem really keen to learn too. I don't post much, but I lurk a lot!
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Post by hoofsculpture on Sept 14, 2009 1:16:19 GMT
hi to everyone on the forum, i had a look at some of the posts, and i can see some serious problems, so can i run some points past you all, in the hope that grey areas can be sorted. all you,r shod horses, were taken at 2-3 years old,[ in most cases they could have galloped over any terrain] their wearing hoof wall was removed ,and replaced by a steel shoe, if that had never been done, but their feet trimmed properly, then we would all have sound barefoot horses today. we cant turn the clock back, so we are where we are. now the damage caused by long term shoeing varies from horse to horse. this is mostly because as we know some horses have naturally tougher, better quality feet than others, and can go for years with a lot less damage than others. i have de shod horses with good feet, that have gone straight to work, these horses will have tough concave sole,frog, and a good rim of healthy hoof wall. horses with worse damage, will have poor quality hoof wall,frog and worst of all, thin unhealthy sole, usually they will have the nail site ready to break off. now i find that many ,if not most people who want to go barefoot, do so because something is wrong with the feet, ie wont keep shoes on, underrun collapsed heels, long pointy toe, bad cracks, broken paster axis, mistery lameness, or even laminitis and navicular. this is not the time to consider barefoot for barefoot,s sake, but as a desperate attempt to help a horse with foot problems, while a good barefoot programe, using boots ,casts urithane,s etc, is a good idea, the primary reason is not to go barefoot, but to repair damaged feet. unfortunatly many people expect the outcome to be a working barefoot horse. to really give barefoot a chance, you must start with a sound horse, with good quality feet, remove the shoes, trim him,lightly if he has hoof wall needing a trim[ a good trim is about leaving as much on as possible] bearing in mind that you cant trim what is not there. if the trim is done correctly, then you can access his progress to true barefoot. nobody should try to set up a trim, based on, books, internet etc, there is too much to learn, and a time to not even consider trimming. now a point that i see is confusing people, i know every trim there is, and except for one, there is very little difference in them, unfortunatly everyone saying the same thing does not sell books, so little differences of little importance are writen, these only serve to confuse people, and are very harmfull. so to explain, no matter how it is written, all trims leave a nice rim of hoof wall longer than the sole.[if the material is there to do it] all trims leave a nice heel about the thickness of 1-2 euro coins. all trims remove any folded over bars down to where they folded above the sole. Now none of this is a mustang hoof, this is how to trim any unshod horse. It is at thi s point that people are confused, How can you leave a rim of hoof above the sole, if there is no hoof to leave, where are the bars,? when the hoof turns the corner at the heels, and slopes gown to the sole, these are the bars, but what is the ridge ,where the bars appear to continue all the way down each side of the frog ,to the tip. then worst of all, THE MUSTANG ROLL the mustang roll is a rounded edge to the outer hoof wall, it is meant to represent the natural wear that would naturally occur if you worked a barefoot horse in sand, this would be a horse trimmed to a sharp edge, after a while he will have his own mustang roll, jamie likes to do a fairly round roll, as it prevents chipping at the edges, helps prevent outward stresses from the ground, and creates a little early,r breakover. this roll is always done on the outer part of the hoof wall, leaving the inner part to loadbear. the way i see it is that jackson is AANHCP, so is pete Ramey and many others, this means that
the other teachers dont use the term mustang roll, and worse than that, they teach that it is harmfull, so ask you,r self, how long would you,r barefoot horse with sharp edges be untill he had chunks out of his feet.
feeding hoof health products would be better done long before going barefoot, that again is expecting too much, and indicates that the horse had poor hoof quality before he was de shod, so give barefoot a chance.
if he has not got good feet, how can he go barefoot. i hope this is helpfull |
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Post by amanda1066 on Sept 14, 2009 21:52:58 GMT
Yes Amanda, I know you're a member, I was thinking that Mandy and Liam might like to join, as they seem really keen to learn too. I don't post much, but I lurk a lot! Apologies I thought you were talking to me.  Yes it is a good Forum to join definitely. now i find that many ,if not most people who want to go barefoot, do so because something is wrong with the feet, ie wont keep shoes on, underrun collapsed heels, long pointy toe, bad cracks, broken paster axis, mistery lameness, or even laminitis and navicular. this is not the time to consider barefoot for barefoot,s sake, but as a desperate attempt to help a horse with foot problems, while a good barefoot programe, using boots ,casts urithane,s etc, is a good idea, the primary reason is not to go barefoot, but to repair damaged feet. unfortunatly many people expect the outcome to be a working barefoot horse. nobody should try to set up a trim, based on, books, internet etc, there is too much to learn, and a time to not even consider trimming. l Thankyou hoofsculpture. So much sense talked here I believe... also to improve feet shoes need to be removed and rehab expected to take time. I have definitely found diet plays a huge part with the quality of horn and ripples,separation etc. even in those of mine who have never had laminitis... should say classic laminitis here. |
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