Competitions and ethics...

[Elaine]

In light of the recent dressage video where the most important thing seems to be getting placed rather than the horses welfare, I have a question.

Do competitons and competitive events encourage people to lower their standard of ethics?

Have you ever found yourself in a competitive environment and done something you might not have done at home, or might not had done if you had more time to work on it without lots of people watching?

When you compete, is your main priority to end up in the prizes, and how far / what would you deem acceptable to do to get there?

Do you think many people compete mainly to boost their own ego, so its more about them than the horse?

Is it ok if the horse is just a means to an end to make you look good, and what does this approach to training horses mean in practise in your opinion?

If you compete and win, but in reality are the best of a bad lot (thus you were pretty bad too), is this something to be proud of, and why?

What ethics have you seen in the competitive world - examples (no names please) of where the rider / owner has shown true horsemanship and put the horses welfare before their ego/placing, etc.

Is it just a small minority who give a bad view of the ethics in competition riding?

[amanda1066]

Great questions elaine that we should all be asking ourselves. I don't compete but of course being me I do have an opinion but will reply later...

[tom]

I think, rather than compete, it is much more fun to just work your horse for the sheer joy of the feeling of being at one with him. I see horsemanship as an art, and as soon as you introduce competition, you compromise that art. I do understand that people want to compete - and that they will make a competition out of anything, like ballroom dancing and so on, but I think true horsemanship is above that.

[jenharvey]

For me, being a vegan, riding will always be an ethical thing. I dont agree that horses should be ridden at all. The reason i am into natural horsemanship, as opposed to traditional training, i guess is because its a kinder way to be with horses, whether you ride them or not.
I do ride and train my horses, and horses for other people. Instead of having nothing to do with horses because i dont agree with them being used, id rather be able to help horses and owners have a better relationship and to show other people a nicer way to train them.
As with competitions, im not against them either. What i disagree with is the length people go to because they want to win. They want success and money, and the more you want that, the more the horse can suffer because of our ego.
The more people get into the ethical side of horsemanship, the less they feel the need to compete. But still, people dont have to want to compete to abuse their horse. And at the same time, not everyone who competes do so at the expense of therir horses wellbeing. Ive heard of people who compete for fun, not wanting the prize or money. Just doing it because they can. I dont know who they are, but there are people out there like this.
But at the same time, if we all thought about the ethics of horses and what matters to them, they wouldnt be ridden at all.

[liamclancy]

As soon as we decide to domesticate a horse we cross a line into abuse, from there on in it's just a question of degree.It dosn't hurt to remind ourselves of this from time to time.As all good trainers say you should always reward the try, and we deserve great credit for trying to minimise the effect our abuse has on our horses.But just because we align ourselves with ethical groups and use words like natural, partnership and willingness dosn't mean we can be complacent,there's always huge scope for improvement.Perhaps most importantly when we witness serious abuse we should always report it,and perhaps as a group protest against it.
We shouldn't live with them ,we cant live without them, what ya guna do!

[jenharvey]

well said

[drifter6]

Nice one Liam and a question that we should ask our selves often but may i inquire what is the level at which cruelty becomes acceptable!!! of course there are a vast number of people who take part in jumping ,eventing ,dressage,racing ,hunting,polo,and many more disciplines , are you suggesting that all these people are accepting and possibly committing acts of cruelty in the pursuit of their particular sport, Doges in coursing had mussels put on then ,why dose the public not demand that horses should not have iron put in their mouths while competing in various activities , My guess is because they don't perceive that there IS any cruelty taking place.

[liamclancy]

Hiya Sean,
What an interesting topic for discussion.You'd think that "acceptable level of cruelty" are words that should never be used together, in fact everybody has an acceptable level, it means different things to different people. It relies heavily on how well infomed you are, until recently I saw no harm in dressage now I've changed my mind! People will set there personal thresholds on a pain for gain basis, the gain can be pleasure,financial,power, prestige etc. etc in the worst cases its pleasure gained from inflicting the pain itself.There's also the fact that things change over time, what were acceptable practices twenty years ago might be banned today.
Personally I have a long list of difficult issues when it comes to owning a horse,it's still a work in progress! I'm fairly sure though that when you take ownership of a horse you deny him just about every instinctive, natural freedom of choice he was born with,and that's before you start roping, strapping,shoeing,saddling, bridling, kicking and whipping him,and all that's going to fall short of a lot of peoples idea of acceptable cruelty.
In the end you pay your money you make your choice.
Hope it was all gain and no pain in Dingle this weekend!!

[amanda1066]

Dec 5, 2009 12:52:28 GMT liamclancy said:

As soon as we decide to domesticate a horse we cross a line into abuse, from there on in it's just a question of degree.

This is my take on domestic horses... I usually say it's all a compromise though as it's sounds less threatening but I do think it is abuse!
I'm with Liam on this all the way really... I'm on a journey as we all are. Mine is to find out as much as I can about what a horse really is and try my best to meet him at least half way. To me this means seeing the horse holistically and looking at all my aspects of horse care and seeing where I can move the compromise more in the horses favour.
So in my journey I have decided not to do many things such a shoe but I've also decided to do things like change my management arrangements and diet...

I've come to think that the horse world is made up of lots of mini societies... dressage, showing, jumping, racing etc. etc. and people become so immersed in that that they forget what a 'natural' horse is so their perspective is altered.

Going back to Elaine's question to stop babbling I think competition does encourage people to do things they would never previously have considered. The sad thing for me really is that imo often then these things become rationalized and 'normal' and then progress. This is how I see for example the development of tack to force a horse into a frame which is also sometimes unnatural frame. This is also used as a short cut instead of training and developing trust and communication between you and the horse it's quicker and easier to force/control the horse rather than train it correctly.
Carolyn Resnick says that Dressage points were previously never used in a competative sense in USA but for personal makers of progress. She says scoring only became competative when Dressage became an Olympic sport. So with this goes sponsors and more 'pressure' to achieve.
Also I think society values have changed... much value is now placed on riches,success, fame and looks etc. so regard for animals as sentient beings has eroded...